"Maybe I can become the voice of the Russians"

Körber-Stiftung: Mr Pivovarov, in August, you and 15 other political prisoners were brought to Germany as part of a prisoner exchange between Germany and the United States and Russia. You have spent more than three years in a Russian prison. What has it been like for you to live in Berlin these last weeks?

I am very thankful to Chancellor Olaf Scholz for getting me out of Putin’s prison. However, I consider my stay here only temporary. I want to work inside Russia again and change the situation within the country. Now, I am trying to recruit a new team and to gather resources for my work. I meet with many of the Russian diaspora here in Berlin, but also in other European cities. I am dedicated to making a difference in Russia, despite having to do it from the outside. I hope that soon Putin will consider regretting this exchange.

What is your impression of the Russian opposition activists, many of whom live in the European Union and London now?

It seems that people are depressed. Almost all of the Russian activists want to go back to Russia, because they want to make real change. When they do something here in Europe, it seems that nothing happens. While I was imprisoned in Karelia …

… in the Northeast of Russia …

They put me in a single cell. I had a lot of time to think. I found that there are only two political ideas. One goes like ‘Let’s wait until Putin dies.’ But that’s not politics; it is just waiting. The other idea is that all Russians must go out on the streets, attack the police and fight for Russian freedom. That is a nice idea, but you cannot discuss it when you are sitting in the comfort zone in Berlin. There must be a third option.

What could be such a third option?

Let me give you one example. In my prison there was a guard. He has a young family and he was dependent on his salary. I try to ask myself what this guy can do against the regime. My idea is to provide a sophisticated system of information to people like him that gives him examples of what he can do without risking his job or safety.

Please explain that.

In the face of severe repression and harsher penalties for dissent, many Russians are unsure how to express their views. Fear of persecution silences many, even though they oppose the war and Putin’s policies. However, silence does not mean indifference. People want to act but do not see a safe way to do so. I want to offer safe and collective forms of protest for those who are against the war and regime but are afraid of directly participating in active opposition. We aim to help Russians express their stance without risking persecution, while fostering a sense of solidarity. Our goal is to unite people through simple, safe but effective forms of ‘non-participation’, which will show the authorities that there is protest, and it is widespread.

What is exactly the effect?

It will not mean that Putin vanishes and the war stops. But it can bring some kind of change, because a lot of money will not go for tanks, the police and Putin’s propaganda. My idea is to gradually expand the methods of non-participation, involving more and more people and building an active civil society ready for more meaningful action against the regime.

But with this very incremental approach it will take years to change something, won’t it?

No, I do not think so. We have social media in Russia, which is still not blocked. Remember that under Soviet rule, you had only the independent radio from abroad that could barely be tuned. Now, almost everyone has a smartphone. You can reach millions of people in rural Russia within seconds. Just look at what happened in Belarus in 2020 through the platform Nexta and Telegram. Nobody believed Belarusians would go out on the street. In the end, those platforms sparked and coordi nated the biggest mass protests that country has ever seen.

It looks like Putin is more stable than ever.

Do you really think that you can challenge him? Again, times have changed. We now have YouTube, Telegram and the Russian network VKontakte. We are in touch with the people. I hope I can keep the connection to Russia and maybe I can become the voice of the Russians. There are brave people who set fire to some buildings as protest against the war. But that is only for heroes. Heroes are great, but we need to reach ordinary people.

Is there any civil society left in Russia that you can reach?

We still have a civil society. Of course, it is not as big as it used to be. There are no structures anymore. Opposition groups had to close; activists had to flee. But many Russians understand that the future does not look good. These people probably never go to demonstrations, but they post on social media, and most people do not want the war to continue.

That does not sound like Russians are very empathetic with Ukrainians.

This may sound tough, because in Ukraine people are dying. But when we talk about ordinary Russians, that is important. Because Putin usually tells them that he will guarantee stability. Now, that promise does not work anymore. He guarantees war.

Following that logic, is it a problem that Western sanctions also impact ordinary Russians?

The sanctions are working and they are good. The problem is that many sanctions hit anti-war Russians. For example, it has become almost impossible for students to get an education abroad. Apple blocks VPNs (virtual private networks, editorʼs note) from its store, making it even more difficult to access independent media. Still, the West must be stronger in enforcing sanctions against military forces.

Your friend and colleague opposition activist Mikhael Khodorkovsky thinks the West and Germany should grant more visas to Russians who oppose Putin. Do you agree?

Yes. When I spoke to the German ambassador in Russia about visas, I suggested that giving visas to talented Russian students and young scientists. This would show that Europe is not fighting with the Russian people but with the Russian authorities.

This idea is not very popular with many Ukrainians. They say the Russian opposition activists do not really care about Ukraine.

Some Ukrainians ask me: ‘Why do not you talk about Ukraine?’ I do talk about Ukraine, but in the end I want to involve Russians in the anti-war movement. That helps Ukraine much more than if I gave money to the Ukrainian army or held a Ukrainian flag.

So, what is your position on the full-scale invasion of Ukraine?

The war must stop. The 1991 border must be restored and only the Ukrainian authorities can decide when and how to stop the war. I feel devastated for Ukrainians. They are being bombed and killed. And I am also sad for civil society in Russia. Do not get me wrong; it is not the same thing. But Russian citizens are also victims of Putin’s regime.

Do you think that Germany and other European countries should help Ukraine by providing long-range missiles that also reach Russian territory?

You must support all the ideas of Ukrainians to defend their country. I do not specialize in military matters, but the West and Germany must do everything and must do more to support Ukraine. Of course, it is wrong when these long-range missiles hit civilian objects. But I understand that it is war.

Since July 2024, Ukrainian forces have been occupying Russian territory in the Kursk region. Does this help Putin’s propaganda by allowing him to say that the West is at war with Russia?

No, I think the Ukrainian invasion of Kursk is a big problem for Putin’s propaganda. It is the first time in 80 years that a foreign army has invaded Russia. The Ukrainian army has been in Kursk for three months now. Putin always claimed that if this happened, he would start a nuclear war and punish everyone from Berlin to Washington. What happened in the end? Nothing happened!

Thank you for your time, Mr Pivovarov.

This interview was conducted in October 2024.